I am copying this from another forum, as I am too lazy to type this much again!
First up, thanks for having me on your forums! If I have posted this in the wrong section, please move to the appropriate place.
I'll give you a summed up story, as it is quite long, even when summarised!
1) 2.5 years ago I buy my first Saab, a 2001 9-3 Anniversary. It had been fitted with a full suspension package, rack brace, td04-t15, and tuned for 280HP. Viggen front brakes too.
2) After 2 years the balance chains get really noisy, so I take it to a Saab specialist, and talk about fitting t5 cams, and end up agreeing on a 2.3l upgrade using crank, rods and machined down pistons from a 9000 aero (apparently these handle 450hp, stock 2.0 t7 only about 300hp).
3) Sits in the shop for a few months, obviously a big job takes a while, and there is some downtime while waiting for parts or waiting on machinists etc. At this point I also ask him to machine the td04 out to fit a t18 compressor wheel, as it already had the larger exhaust housing. I was originally going for t19 but it lags too much.
4) All of the above is done, along with 300mm vented rear braked (2002 9-5 aero), additional poly bushes, 6-point subframe brace, HUGE Auto cooler (should mention, I LOVE driving manuals but this is my daily driver, coming home after a crappy day at work stuck in traffic in a manual sucks). Got some 17x7 9-3 aero rims (like everyone else :P) had them refinished and new tyres. Forge waste gate actuator, custom modified 9000 manifold.
5) Probably more things that I will add later.
6) He calls me up, says to drive it around normally and don't thrash it. It's running lower boost at this point, then after 1-2 months I was meant to bring it back for 1000cc injectors and have it tuned.
7) I drive for a week, like a dream. Handles better, drives smooth, although not as powerful the 2.3 torque was very apparent.
8) Here's where things get sticky. I get a call after 1 week instead of 1-2 months, apparently the tuner is in town. I say that I've only done 500km's, he sounds a bit hesitant but says bring it in anyway.
9) I leave it with his for a few days, gets tuned and finished off, apparently it flies. Should point out, the tuner dyno tunes cars with similar hardware (e.g. aftermarket injectors, turbo boost levels, cam profiles) as a base tune, then loads the appropriate tune to th next car and fine tunes on the road. My tune was one of these, but obviously thrashed. 25l/100km (12l/100km normal) when I got in, and a layer of brake dust and half a tank of fuel gone in only a few hours. As soon as I drive out the driveway, I notice a tiny knock under light-moderate to heavy load about 2,000rpm. Initially I think nothing of it, obviously he road tested it first.
10) I drive it for a few days, the sound gets a little worse. It does sound like pinging, but pinging would be impossible with this tune (also running 98octane plus boosters to make it about 104) so has to be something mechanical.
11) I leave it with him overnight, sends me a text the next day saying its very minor piston slap, don't worry, it's the same as forgies.
12) I reply saying that both the car the pistons came out of and indeed my own block did knock, and that forgies expand and contract a lot more hence the slap while cold, but these are standard cast pistons and the noise doesn't go away when hot. I then say that it drove in quiet as a mouse when I dropped it, and that there is no doubt in my mind the tuner thrashing it has caused something to bend, crack, break etc.
So, my question to you all, what causes a metallic knock/hammer sound above 2000rpm, which gets worse with load.
He says piston slap, but my research indicates this is heard at idle when cold, and goes away with higher rpm.
Other things like a bent rod or excessively warn out rings (without proper bedding) could make sounds, but would probably affect performance.
The most likely thing I have seen from watching lots of youtube videos is a big end bearing on its way out, which is a bit hard to prove, but if the car was tuned and the rev limiter removed whilst doing so then its easily possible the oil got too hot and some white metal was burnt off.
Another thing I should mention, he said that my original motor was the cleanest motor he had ever taken apart, the hone marks in the cylinders were as if brand new, he even said I could re use my rings and bearings if I wanted, but I insisted on new items.
Please give me some advice. The mechanic is a specialist, and probably the only person in the country with this much experience so want to keep him on my side. The tuner is also one of the only guys with the software and knowledge, I don't give a flying crap about him but the mechanic definitely wants to keep him as he does all tuning work, even on stock cars with an exhaust.
ideally I need a way to prove where the sound is coming from, there is a basic compression test to see is the rings are knackered, the the dot-on-a-straw to find tdc, then see if the piston move just after tdc when pushed with a screwdriver (i.e. if the bearing shells are warn).
TL;DR: read 8 down.
Advice is very much appreciated, as I have spent a LOT of money to end up with one noisier than i drove in with.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
REPLY 1:
Thanks for your reply ******,
Pre-tune was 280hp, on stock b205/t7 internals. Safe, but definitely the limit (300hp max).
Post build/tune, it makes approximately 330-350hp, on the stronger b234/t5 internals (450hp max)
I had no intention of exceeding 450hp, as I am limited to my TD04-t18 turbo (I want the whole build to look 100% factory, nothing shiny, chrome, or blue :D) so forged pistons were not necessary.
All new rings and bearings, assembled like a brand new motor.
As far as power handling abilities of internal components go, there is a massive "safe zone" between power made and power handling ability (a solid 100hp or 25%).
I am more concerned that:
1)being tuned before the proper break-in procedure has caused damaged, or
2)the tuner may have lifted rev limiters or other air/boost/fuel ratio safeties as process of fine tuning, which momentarily cause it to rev too high, or run too lean, or something else that caused damage.
There is absolutely no dispute the car was thrashed, the mechanic even wiped his finger on my rim (re painted 2-3 days ago) and made a comment about how the tuner is so hard on cars with so much brake dust in only an hour or so.
I should also make this clear, I dealt with the mechanic directly, and while I said hello to the tuner I paid the mechanic for a "custom performance tune" so any damage done by the tuner will be the responsibility of the mechanic.
EDIT: This build was planned months in advance with the mechanic and myself (and the mechanic verifying things with other specialists at every step), specifically selecting components that will exceed any possible tune. If i upgraded to a TD05 turbo, then yes forgies would be essential but I decided to keep the factory look which meant no more than 350hp at most (even if i went up to a t19 wheel), which means b234 internals will easily support it with a 100hp "safety" buffer.
First up, thanks for having me on your forums! If I have posted this in the wrong section, please move to the appropriate place.
I'll give you a summed up story, as it is quite long, even when summarised!
1) 2.5 years ago I buy my first Saab, a 2001 9-3 Anniversary. It had been fitted with a full suspension package, rack brace, td04-t15, and tuned for 280HP. Viggen front brakes too.
2) After 2 years the balance chains get really noisy, so I take it to a Saab specialist, and talk about fitting t5 cams, and end up agreeing on a 2.3l upgrade using crank, rods and machined down pistons from a 9000 aero (apparently these handle 450hp, stock 2.0 t7 only about 300hp).
3) Sits in the shop for a few months, obviously a big job takes a while, and there is some downtime while waiting for parts or waiting on machinists etc. At this point I also ask him to machine the td04 out to fit a t18 compressor wheel, as it already had the larger exhaust housing. I was originally going for t19 but it lags too much.
4) All of the above is done, along with 300mm vented rear braked (2002 9-5 aero), additional poly bushes, 6-point subframe brace, HUGE Auto cooler (should mention, I LOVE driving manuals but this is my daily driver, coming home after a crappy day at work stuck in traffic in a manual sucks). Got some 17x7 9-3 aero rims (like everyone else :P) had them refinished and new tyres. Forge waste gate actuator, custom modified 9000 manifold.
5) Probably more things that I will add later.
6) He calls me up, says to drive it around normally and don't thrash it. It's running lower boost at this point, then after 1-2 months I was meant to bring it back for 1000cc injectors and have it tuned.
7) I drive for a week, like a dream. Handles better, drives smooth, although not as powerful the 2.3 torque was very apparent.
8) Here's where things get sticky. I get a call after 1 week instead of 1-2 months, apparently the tuner is in town. I say that I've only done 500km's, he sounds a bit hesitant but says bring it in anyway.
9) I leave it with his for a few days, gets tuned and finished off, apparently it flies. Should point out, the tuner dyno tunes cars with similar hardware (e.g. aftermarket injectors, turbo boost levels, cam profiles) as a base tune, then loads the appropriate tune to th next car and fine tunes on the road. My tune was one of these, but obviously thrashed. 25l/100km (12l/100km normal) when I got in, and a layer of brake dust and half a tank of fuel gone in only a few hours. As soon as I drive out the driveway, I notice a tiny knock under light-moderate to heavy load about 2,000rpm. Initially I think nothing of it, obviously he road tested it first.
10) I drive it for a few days, the sound gets a little worse. It does sound like pinging, but pinging would be impossible with this tune (also running 98octane plus boosters to make it about 104) so has to be something mechanical.
11) I leave it with him overnight, sends me a text the next day saying its very minor piston slap, don't worry, it's the same as forgies.
12) I reply saying that both the car the pistons came out of and indeed my own block did knock, and that forgies expand and contract a lot more hence the slap while cold, but these are standard cast pistons and the noise doesn't go away when hot. I then say that it drove in quiet as a mouse when I dropped it, and that there is no doubt in my mind the tuner thrashing it has caused something to bend, crack, break etc.
So, my question to you all, what causes a metallic knock/hammer sound above 2000rpm, which gets worse with load.
He says piston slap, but my research indicates this is heard at idle when cold, and goes away with higher rpm.
Other things like a bent rod or excessively warn out rings (without proper bedding) could make sounds, but would probably affect performance.
The most likely thing I have seen from watching lots of youtube videos is a big end bearing on its way out, which is a bit hard to prove, but if the car was tuned and the rev limiter removed whilst doing so then its easily possible the oil got too hot and some white metal was burnt off.
Another thing I should mention, he said that my original motor was the cleanest motor he had ever taken apart, the hone marks in the cylinders were as if brand new, he even said I could re use my rings and bearings if I wanted, but I insisted on new items.
Please give me some advice. The mechanic is a specialist, and probably the only person in the country with this much experience so want to keep him on my side. The tuner is also one of the only guys with the software and knowledge, I don't give a flying crap about him but the mechanic definitely wants to keep him as he does all tuning work, even on stock cars with an exhaust.
ideally I need a way to prove where the sound is coming from, there is a basic compression test to see is the rings are knackered, the the dot-on-a-straw to find tdc, then see if the piston move just after tdc when pushed with a screwdriver (i.e. if the bearing shells are warn).
TL;DR: read 8 down.
Advice is very much appreciated, as I have spent a LOT of money to end up with one noisier than i drove in with.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
REPLY 1:
Thanks for your reply ******,
Pre-tune was 280hp, on stock b205/t7 internals. Safe, but definitely the limit (300hp max).
Post build/tune, it makes approximately 330-350hp, on the stronger b234/t5 internals (450hp max)
I had no intention of exceeding 450hp, as I am limited to my TD04-t18 turbo (I want the whole build to look 100% factory, nothing shiny, chrome, or blue :D) so forged pistons were not necessary.
All new rings and bearings, assembled like a brand new motor.
As far as power handling abilities of internal components go, there is a massive "safe zone" between power made and power handling ability (a solid 100hp or 25%).
I am more concerned that:
1)being tuned before the proper break-in procedure has caused damaged, or
2)the tuner may have lifted rev limiters or other air/boost/fuel ratio safeties as process of fine tuning, which momentarily cause it to rev too high, or run too lean, or something else that caused damage.
There is absolutely no dispute the car was thrashed, the mechanic even wiped his finger on my rim (re painted 2-3 days ago) and made a comment about how the tuner is so hard on cars with so much brake dust in only an hour or so.
I should also make this clear, I dealt with the mechanic directly, and while I said hello to the tuner I paid the mechanic for a "custom performance tune" so any damage done by the tuner will be the responsibility of the mechanic.
EDIT: This build was planned months in advance with the mechanic and myself (and the mechanic verifying things with other specialists at every step), specifically selecting components that will exceed any possible tune. If i upgraded to a TD05 turbo, then yes forgies would be essential but I decided to keep the factory look which meant no more than 350hp at most (even if i went up to a t19 wheel), which means b234 internals will easily support it with a 100hp "safety" buffer.